Players Fold - Dealers Muck
Four simple words. You wouldn’t think it would be too hard to remember them. They aren’t even long words. None of them are more than two syllables. Players Fold. Dealers Muck.
How hard is that to remember? Let me say it again. Players Fold. Dealers Muck. Now, everybody say it with me this time. Players Fold. Dealers Muck.
Maybe we should make a song out of it:
Mary had two little cards, little cards, little cards.
She tossed them towards the great big pot.
This is called a fold.The dealer slid them round the pot, round the pot, round the pot.
Slid them into the muck pile.
This is called a muck.
There, now try getting that catchy tune out of your head for the rest of the day.
Seriously, though. I’ve seen this simple concept cause more confusion than almost any other rule. For example, most tournaments have the following rule (excerpt from Robert’s Rules of Poker)
All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete.
However, many players question what happens if a player “mucks” his cards instead of turning them over for everybody to see. The simple answer to this question is what? Everybody say it with me now!!!! Players fold. Dealers muck. The player did not muck his cards - he attempted to fold. Since there is no more action, it is not even possible for the player to fold. To say the player can fold his hand in this situation is as silly as saying he can call, bet, or raise. He can’t take any poker action - all action is done. (Or as my Uncle Rollo used to say, “All action is D U N, done.”)
Of course, the next question I usually get after that explanation is: “but what if the cards are no longer identifiable.” My answer to that is one of the following:
- Teach your players to deal properly and maintain a proper muck pile. Players shouldn’t have access to it. Only the dealer should have access to the muck pile.
- Don’t use a rotating deal. Have a dedicated dealer who can sit in the proper spot and knows what he/she is doing. (For those who have not tried this: Yes, you can play in and deal a tournament at the same time. Yes, you can run your tournaments in this fashion. Yes, once they try it, most people find a dedicated dealer (who also plays) far superior to a rotating deal.)
- Don’t play in that game anymore if they don’t follow proper dealing procedures because the next time, the problem may be bigger and it may cost you money.
Remember, folks. The muck pile is not a group of cards sitting next to the pot. The dealer should be controlling the action and that includes raking the bets into the pot and raking the folded cards into the muck pile. That’s the dealer’s job no matter who is dealing and what method (rotating or dedicated) you are using.
So, to finish my little rant here, let me close by saying it one more time. Gather round and hold hands, please. On three.
One…
Two…
Three…
Players Fold. Dealers Muck.
Until next time,
KC
For another example of a situation that involved the difference between folding and mucking, see: http://grandslampokersource.com/2008/12/19/responding-to-readers-email/
For more rules information or to ask a question, visit The Grand Slam Poker Source Poker Rules Page.
Would you be comfortable with a house rule that would allow an all-in player to not show his cards at showdown if it was an infrequent occurence? I think your explanation about mucks and folds is spot on, I just wondered if you had any wiggle room regarding a house rule. I promise I’m not looking for a debate, just your thoughts and opinion. Thanks.
Pat
First, I don’t like house rules. About 99% of the time, people put in a house rule to serve one purpose without any thought on how it might affect other situations, scenarios, players, etc.
Second, what I consider to be an infrequent occurence may be considered a frequent occurence to others. It’s all relative. Besides, something that happens infrequently now may turn into a frequent occurence if the rules change.
Third, I’m not a fan of wiggle room. While no set of rules can consider all situation, nor should they, they should not allow wiggle room. What they should allow is for the official or director the ability to apply them consistently and fairly. I believe, in most cases, the rules already do this and a house rule would only serve to “muck” that up (pun intended).
To answer your question - no, I would not be comfortable with a house rule in this situation. Without a very good reason for doing so, I don’t believe it is appropriate to thumb our noses at the experience of Bob Ciaffone, the man who wrote the rule and has the knowledge and logic to understand how the rules interact with each other.
Thanks for the question.
KC
Thanks for your reply. As I read and listen more, I realize that being too stubborn about a few rules, does make for potential disasters down the road. I’ll admit that accepting Mr. Ciaffones every rule has been a big challenge for me. I truly am working on it, but it’s really hard for me to succumb to understanding and accepting every single rule as written. It’s my poker upbringing that gets in the way of reason and logic. I should get back to the brick and mortar games where I’m not the one enforcing the rules as I see fit.
So from now on I’ll be more receptive to advice and criticism from people who are dedicated to upholding the integrity of the game I enjoy so much. It won’t be easy, but I’m sure gonna give it a more honest effort.
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
Pat
You don’t have to succumb to every rule as written - just make sure you consider all the consequences of changing a rule or not following it. The rules all affect each other. Each rule does not stand alone. So, changing one rule, adding a rule, or subtracting a rule can have unforeseen implications. Make sure you’ve considered all the possibilities of your actions and make sure you understand that you may not have been able to foresee everything.
The most important thing of all is consistency. If you bend the rule even once, you set a precedent you might not want to set. What seems innocent and benign to you now may come back to bite you in the butt later. It’s the ole, “Well, you let him do this, why can’t I do that” thing.
So, just be careful….
Besides, don’t you live in Atlanta? There are no B&M casinos here.
KC
Houston actually. Kroger, pathand, busted cardrooms, etc. Besides, if I lived in Georgia, I’d have bought you a beer by now. lol
V.well written, this gem will be getting passed on.